Crip Times Episode October 7, 2021
Crip Times Episode 10: The Ryan OāConnell Episode
7:00am - 8:30am
Itās the season finale of Crip Times! Buckle up for lots of LOLs and too many puns. This week, Kayla, Kristina, and Drew are joined by Ryan OāConnell, creator, writer, and star of Netflixās Special. Heās done other stuff too but ughhh, who cares?
We talk about cerebral palsy, the power of authentic disability representation, pushing the envelope of gay and disabled sexuality on screen, pandemic challenges specific to disabled people, and the āwell-meaningā ableism that can show up when weāre just trying to live our lives.
āI will be obsessed with anything queerness and disability ātil the day I die. Like, I am just getting started. I will tell as many stories as I want about that. I will be given the space to do itā
We move into a conversation about storytelling as activism, and the challenges of learning and growing in your disability politics in a very public way. How do you tell authentic stories, without catering to an abled audience? How do we deal with internalized ableism, and the feeling of āneeding to do moreā? How do we push back against societal messaging that one marginalized story is enough?
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FULL TRANSCRIPT
[Begins: 00:00:00]
Narrator: You are listening to a Wheels on the Ground production.
[Jazz music playing]
Yousef: Hi and welcome to the tenth and the final episode of the first season of Crip Times. Today we will be listening to Ryan OāConnell. Ryan is a writer, actor, and activist as well as the creator and star of the Netflix series Special. Kick back and laugh with your hosts Kayla and Kristina, as well as our guest host for the episode, the creator of the Wheels on the Ground podcast network and host of the Disability After Dark podcast series, Drew Gurza.
Kayla Besse [KB]: Hey everyone. Welcome back to Crip Times. It is Sunday afternoon. It is a January pandemic Sunday. So, we are doing what we can. This is Kayla. Iām here with Kristina and the one and only Ryan OāConnell. Hi Ryan!
Ryan OāConnell [RO]: Hi! Every day feels like Sunday in a pandemic. Donāt you think?
KB: Yeah. Did you see that tweet that was like, āWe all feel like shit because itās like every day is the Sunday Scaries, but like for the rest of an indeterminate amount of time.ā
RO: I havenāt seen it, but I feel it and I relate to it. [laughs]
[Everyone laughs]
KB: Yeah. Thatās real. So, for listeners or transcript readers who donāt know you, could you introduce yourself?
RO: Yeah. Uh, Iām Ryan OāConnell. Umā¦ I have Cerebral Palsy. I made a show called Special on Netflix which I wrote, created, and starred in. And Iā¦ Yeah. Season two is coming out sort of soon and blah blah blah blah. [laughs]
[Everyone laughs]
KB: That is quiteā¦
RO: Is that good? I donāt know how to introduce myself. Iām bad at this, babe.
KB: Iām sorry. Itās all good. You said what you needed to say. Also, want to mention we are joined by Andrew Gurza today. In part ā
Drew Gurza [DG]: Hello!
KB: Hi Andrew.
DG: Hi!
KB: So, this is the Cerebral Palsy episode. Myself and Ryan and Andrew all have Cerebral Palsy so it is a CP party on this day.
RO: The most gentle of parties.
[Everyone laughs]
Kristina McMullin [KM]: I feel honoured to have been included as an honorary CP party memberā¦
DG: Itās a cozy party.
RO: Come on in baby. The waterās warm!
KM: Love it. Thank you!
[00:02:55]
KB: If it wasnāt, my joints might dislocate. Soā¦ uhā¦
[Everyone laughs]
DG: I would probably stop breathing because cold is real. Cold water and CP is a dangerous game.
RO: I guess warm water is ableist.
[Everyone laughs]
KB: Are you saying cold water is ableist?
RO: Cold waterā¦ Coming into waterā¦ Itās all fucked up! And we donāt talk about it! But we are talking about it today!
KM: We are talking about it today.
DG: You live in LA. What is your experience with like hot tubs? Going into hot tubs in like really hot water? And CP is alsoā¦ itās too much.
RO: Wait, I love them. Iām actually getting a hot tub installed. Iām addicted to hot tubs!
KB: No! Iām so jealous!
DG: Iām so jealous! Fuck right off.
RO: They soothe my muscles. They make my achy muscles feel better.
KB: Me too.
RO: Is thatā¦ Is thatā¦
DG: Me three.
RO: Okay. Yeah. So thatās the thing.
KM: So, you are getting your own hot tub that you can just like, use whenever the fuck you want?
RO: Yeah! Because I got a house and so a house needs a hot tub. Do you know what I mean?
KM: I mightā¦ I am so loving that for you.
[Everyone laughs]
KM: Maybe one day when I have my own Netflix show Iāll get my own hot tub.
DG: Iām loving that for you but Iām also high key hating you right now because Kayla, Kristina, and I are in the throes of Canadian winter right now. Which meansā¦
RO: Yes.
DG: That itās fucking cold. And I want a hot tub at my house! Itās not fair.
[Everyone laughs]
RO: Itās okay. LA is on fire four months out of the year and the air quality is so bad that you shouldnāt go outside. So, Iām sure thereās some tradeoffs. Do you know what I mean?
DG: Yeah, okay.
KB: Yeah, I felt really guilty enjoying that itās been so warm. Warm being like zero degrees Celsius here. Because Iām like good for me, bad for the earth. But like, mmmā¦ [laughs]
DG: Yeah. It was plus four yesterday here and I was likeā¦ this is weird.
KB: Yeah.
DG: But Iāll take it.
RO: Yeah, weāll have to pay for it. Thatās going on the credit card of experiences. Do you know what I mean? Weāre charging it now but weāll pay it off later.
KB: Exactly.
DG: The credit card of experiences. Thatās a new one.
KB: Um, so Ryan this is a ridiculous question. But, how are you? Itās been almost one year of doing this pandemic.
RO: Yeah.
KB: Isolation, quarantine. Is anything making it suck less? What makes it suck the most?
RO: Oh my god. I meanā¦ yeah. Itās like Herbie Fully Loaded. I mean Iāve been having a really hard time I think in the last month. Because I felt like in my brain was like, āOkay. If Biden gets elected and thereās a vaccine, things will get better.ā And then so itās like Biden got elected. But he is not president yet and obviously I feel like I donāt want to be like scary Jerry. But I just feel like thereās some shit brewing and it doesnāt feel safe. Etc. Etc. So, you are like, Okay this is obviously not a light switch that goes off and on. Whatever. And then the vaccines are here but they are kind of not here and they are hard to get and blah blah blah. So, itās like Iām being like emotionally blue balled. Where like there are things on the horizon that Iām like excited about and it feels like it could be the dawning of a new era. But it feels very like, so close yet so far away. And I donāt know about you guys, but like I donāt really know how like CP and Rona get along. Iām guessing they donāt get along.
[00:06:10]
DG: They reallyā¦ They donāt.
RO: Yeah, Iām guessing they donāt get along. Theyāre not BFFs.
DG: Nope.
RO: They are not like, you know, whatever. So, the anxiety of like getting Coronavirus and not knowing how itāll interact with my Cerebral Palsy is like just a new fun added layer of torture. Um, and then LA county is like the epicenter of infectious [laughs] virus caseloads. They are estimating that one in three people in LA have had Coronavirus. Soā¦ anyway. TL;DR Itās been weird. [laughs]
KB: Yup.
KM: Yup.
KB: Is there anything that you are like, āThis helps right nowā? Or are you just like one terrible minute at a time.
RO: Working! Iām a productive bitch from Virgo hell. So, like Iāve been like I thinkā¦ like hereās the thing. The world is literally like a garbage can, so I feel like the way that I deal with it is that I create my own world that I get lost in through my work. Like, Iām just like, āWow! This reality is literal hell. Letās create a more utopian world thatās like fun to spend five hours a day in.ā So, like I have just been the most productive Iāve ever been work-wise. And so that has been really amazing and Iāve been really grateful to be able to work throughout the pandemic and make an income and all that stuff. So, that has been like the Silver Linings Playbook. But, um, yeah. Itās like you know. āEvery Day Is A Winding Roadā by Sheryl. You know? Sheryl said it best.
DG: Yeah. Throwback.
RO: Yeah.
DG: I love Sheryl Crow. Maybe itās a gay thing? Growing up Sheryl Crow was my jam. āStrong Enoughā was my favourite song when I was like ten.
RO: Yeah.
DG: Soā¦
RO: Yeah. Absolutely. Itās kind of iconique for sure. So yeah. Anyway, so weāll see. I mean I think you know; the vaccines are going to be here shortā¦ I donāt know whatās going with Canada, Iām sure you guys have a gorgeous situation going on there.
KB: You would think.
DG: No. If by gorgeous you mean great? No.
RO: No? Ugh.
DG: The vaccines. What have you guys heard? I heard today the rollout wonāt start ātil like summer, maybe September? Maybe December if weāre lucky?
RO: What!?
KB: Yeah.
RO: I donātā¦ Wait, why? I donāt understand. You guys have your shit together. I donāt get it.
KB: No.
DG: Trudeau is pretty. But he is notā¦
[Everyone laughs]
KB: So, Doug Ford is the Premier of Ontario and they were like okayā¦ okay. Lockdown number two. Definitely stay home but like, choose your own adventure if you stay home? Like we are not really sure.
DG: But like, you can go out. But you can only have five people if you are out. And if you are outside, you shouldnāt be outside. But you can go outside if you need to. But donāt go outsideā¦ Itās really confusing.
RO: But wait? What are the case numbers? Because LA just for reference, LA County has fifteen thousand cases a day. [laughs] Which isā¦ say it with me. A lot!
DG: Ugh, you would probably feel like there was no pandemic then, if you lived in Ontario somewhere. We hadā¦ what was today? Threeā¦ just over three thousand in Ontario. But I mean, we had three hundred last August. So, three thousand is like a huge jump.
[00:09:08]
RO: Wow. Three thousand. I would be like raw-dogging the air. Iād be like literallyā
[Everyone laughs]
RO: At a brunch with forty people. Literally like Caligula style. Iā¦ like that sounds like heaven.
KB: Speaking of utopia and creating new worlds [laughs] I donāt know how to segue I have notā¦
KM: Literally Kayla, I was in my head trying to find a segue and that was literally the only one I could get. So, great minds think alike.
DG: I love listening to you try to segue though. It is officially my favourite thing right now. So, keep going.
KB: Thank you. Kristina, do you want to take this one?
KM: Yeah. Sure. So, speaking of creating our own utopias through our work: You mentioned that you are the producer, actor, writer, of your Netflix show Special. Umā¦ we created this podcast essentially to talk about folks who are working in like arts, academia, and activism that are living in like the disability, Mad, Crip sector. Oftentimes like, Hollywood and film and television are kind of seen as separate from like the quote unquote āarts.ā So, like how do you see your work specifically impacting the broader art sector? Kind of outside the confines of Hollywood and film and television.
RO: Well, I think the power of representation cannot be underestimated. Like, growing up I never saw anyone that looked like me, ever, and that kind of implicitly told me that I did not matter. So, I was like okay! Message received! Off to therapy I go.
[Everyone laughs]
RO: So, I think whatās great about being in a place like Netflix is that the platform is truly so huge. Do you know what I mean? Itās not like, I mean, now Iām like dragging other places. But itās not likeā¦ You know what I mean? The reach of being on a Netflix show versus like, a free-form show or whatever. Itās just like apples and oranges. So, I feel like when it comes to like niche content. Usually, we are used to like airing as a web series that like five people have access to via a DNA sample and then itās literally like, Indiewire writes about it and then it gets called a day.
[Everyone laughs]
RO: And so being able to kind of be at the Top Forty of platforms. You know? Having my show be an Ariana Grande pop song and be able to reach the masses I think is extremely valuable. Because if I had seen a show like thisā¦.if I had known this kind of life was possible for me it would have, you know, saved me a lot of years at the āI hate myselfā fair. So, I donāt know. I just think that thatās the power of TV and film, is being able to introduce people to stories and lives that they wouldnāt necessarily be exposed to and creating empathy for them. And then for the people that you are exploring, itās giving them this message that, you know, that they matter. That they are important. That their story deserves to be told.
[00:12:20]
KB: And representation beyond, like, inspiration porn. Right? We talked earlier how you are like, āMy character is allowed to mess up and be an asshole sometimes.ā Not be this like perfect thing handled with kid gloves. Which, yes.
RO: Yeah.
KB: About time for that!
RO: Well yeah, and thatās becauseā¦ I also think itās because an actual disabled person is creating it. And Iāve talked about this before but itās like, Hollywood is addicted to like, you know, profiting off the pain of marginalized people. Being able to be like, āGet that Oscar honey! Get that award season baby! We are so brave! Omg look what we did. We are so good!ā And then you are like, actually look at the liner notes. Wow. Like literally no one involved in the creation of this thing actually is part of the community that you are portraying. Great job! Dot. Dot. Dot. So, I think weāve moved past like, itās just enough that you make a movie about it or thereās a tv show about it. No, no, no honey. You need to employ the people from the community that you are portraying. You need to advance them. Give them power, money and jobs.
KB: Yeah. Whatās your experience been like in the industry in terms of hiring other marginalized folks? Having other disabled people on sets? Things like that. Has there been push back?
RO: No. But itāsā¦ but itās complicated. I mean first of all; I feel Iām always racked with this guilt and this feeling of like, I could do more, I could do more. Because Special is a very scrappy show with not a lot of money. And we donāt have a lot of resources. And so, for example, we shoot on location. We donāt really build sets. We, I think, we had one set for season two, meaning that we are basically shooting in real houses. We are shooting in real apartments which are of course, spoiler, not handicap accessible. So that already limits, you know, who we can have for crew. I wish I had Ryan Murphy money and Tyler Perry money where I could just build an accessible compound where people could go and film and do whatever, whatever. But Iām not there yet. Hashtag goals.
KB: Yeah.
DG: I mean you have āRyanā in your name so maybe one day. An empire. Like Ryan Murphy does! Itāll be like the OāConnell files, or something. I donāt know.
RO: Iāve heard thatās all it takes. Sharing a name. For sure.
[Everyone laughs]
RO: No, but you know. So, weāll see. Weāll see what happens. But, um, you know. Sets are not designed with handicap people or disabled people in mind. Because they are like, itās like when Ali Stroker won the Tony. She couldnāt even get on the fuckingā¦ She had to go another way. Itās like they never ā the Tonyās never imagined a disabled person winning a Tony.
[00:15:09]
RO: And again, I really donāt think itās this malice of wanting to keep disabled people out. I just think that weāve been pushing to the fringes of society, entrenched in systemic poverty. All these things working against us. They never imagined that we would be a part of things. Well guess what, bitch? We are. So, itās overwhelming because itās such a systemic problem that it canāt be solved in a single season of television and it requires a lot of money and resources of people getting on board. Like I canāt move mountains necessarily [laughs]. Which is ableist anyway! Am I right ladies?
[Everyone laughs]
RO: Letās get to the bottom of that! Okay!
[Everyone laughs]
RO: Ugh. So anyway. Like this is a long-winded way of saying like I wouldā¦ for season two I was able to do some things that I was proud of. But I was also left with feeling like, āOkay. Thereās so much work to be done.ā Like, itās overwhelming. It is. Iām being like very frank. Itās very overwhelming. Because I want to do all the things.
KB: Yup.
RO: You know what I mean. Itās such a deep-rooted issue in our culture and our society. And it goes way beyond just like, making sure thereās a ramp on a set or whatever. Do you know what I mean?
KB: Definitely. Yeah. But when we talked earlier you were really excited and all of us are really excited, about your push for an inclusion of disability and sexuality on your show.
RO: Mmhmm.
KB: I think itās so powerful. Thatās such a clichĆ© word. But it really is! Itās not, I had never seen that before. Like you said, growing upā¦ never. So, I screamed when I saw that in season one and maybe you could break down that scene a little bit? When your character, also named Ryan, meets with a sex worker for the first time.
RO: Yeah. Just even to rewind the tape a little bit. When we were shopping Special around there was a bidding war between like four studios that wanted to produce it, and then take it out to networks. Okay? I was veryā¦ I was like a little story editor on Awkward. I had only been working in the business for a year. I had no power whatsoever. I was also twenty-six or twenty-seven. I had no idea what I was doing. But what I really was sure about was that I wanted this show to explore sexuality. I definitely, you know, wanted to push the envelope. Cum all over it. Etc. Etc.
[Everyone laughs]
RO: I also knew the landscape of Hollywood was likeā¦I knew that like CBS would be like, āDisabled? Gay? Cool! We love it!ā And then they would buy it and be like, āWait what? What did we just buy? I donāt understand.ā And then we could never show his sexualityā¦whatever whatever. So I just knew that was the road I didnāt want to go on. I remember like certain studios actually backed out because like, āIf he doesnāt want to go to Network, then weāre not interested.ā
[00:18:03]
RO: Because for some reason, even though literally no one cares about network television and they are forty years behind. No offense. But they just are. Like who cares? They still have this weird power because they weirdly have so much money. Still. And so anyway, Iām proud of twenty-seven year old silly me that was still like didnāt know anything. But was like āNo, I donāt want to go to Network.ā I really, really think this show should explore sex in a really honest way. I want to make sure that Iām in a place that can support that.
KM: Mmhmm.
RO: So, we ended up at Netflix. Which literally like, anything goes. Which I love. It was really, really important to me that we show Ryan as a sexually viable person with desires and with agency. And um, I also wanted to destigmatize sex work which is something that Iām very passionate about. So, it was almost like killing two birds with one very woke stone. Iā¦ It was really important to me that the sex feels authentic. That, like, I looked at like GIRLS which really portrayed straight sex as kind of messy and weird and awkward and funny and all the things. It was like revolutionary to show sex in an honest way. I was like, Oh, I want to do that. But for gay people! Because thatās the same experience as well. Sex can be, you know, sexy. It can be awkward. It can be humiliating. It can be empowering. All within the span of two minutes. So, I really, really wanted to kind of showcase that reality and um, shooting the scene was so weird. Because I could feelā¦very rarely do you feel in the moment that you are setting out, you are achieving what you set out to do. Itās usually like, āI hope that fucking worked out! Iāll see you in the edit!ā You know? That was like the scene where I was like, āOh, shit. This feels like something. This feels like weāre tapping into an energy that we have never seen before. And it feels organic and it feels real and umā¦ It was a terrifying scene to shoot because, you know, I was like naked the entire time. Blah blah blah. Honestly, from the CP perspective the hardest part of that scene was, I had to get undressed from a suit. I didnāt know acting. I didnāt know how acting works. So I didnāt realize that you like, have to do a scene forty different times. So, when you are seeing me get out of my suit, itās not that we just did that once and itās like, āAnyways!ā We shot that like forty different ways, forty different coverage. We shot thatā¦we shot that on Brianās coverage, meaning that I wasnāt even like in the shot but I had to get undressed. Do you know what Iām saying? My CP ass was like, exhausted. So, by the time that I was likeā
[Everyone laughs]
RO: By the time that I was like, naked and on my back, I was like āHoney. Letās party, Iām at Club Med.ā
[Everyone laughs]
[00:21:00]
RO: I truly felt that I was just like, you know, being able to like sit back and relax. That was the easiest part in the world. Getting through that suit undressing scene was pure hell.
KM: Mmhmm.
KB: Oh my god. Yeah. Or um, itās such a small moment right before that scene. But it stood out, for me, Ryan gets toā¦ I forget the other characters name.
RO: Shay.
KB: Shayās apartment and looks up the staircase and is like, āFuck.ā Doesnāt say anything but that just half second shot of like, Now thereās stairs too? Like I came here toā¦
[Everyone laughs]
RO: Yeah. Itās like, UGH! The obstacle course to lose my virginity. Like here we go at the Amazing Race! You know what I mean?
KB: Yeah. Itās just another fucking thing.
Ryan: Well, I think disabled people make these small calculations a million times a day.
KM: A hundred percent.
RO: And by the way, I feel like I have always been so addicted to routine and structure, and I feel like itās so hard with disability. Like what came first, the chicken or the egg kind of vibes. Where itās like, I live my life in such a way where I do the same thing every day. I eat the same thing every day. I go to the same coffee shop every day. And I wonder if thatās not so much an obsession with routine as so much of as an aversion to any kind of surprise. Because I donāt like navigating anything that I likeā¦ because I donāt know what will pop up. I remember when I went to Europe, LOL, when I was 23, post-grad vibes. I was just like, every day there was some kind of new troll that I had to navigate with like, you know, a door or a key. You know, whatever. I just couldnāt conceptualize what was in front of me because it was all new. I think thatās when my brain has a hard time processing things a little bit. It takes me a second to orient myself. So, that was a really stressful experience. I feel like Iāve set up my life in such a way where there are no surprises. Itās like, I know how to do every single thing. You know what I mean?
KB: I think itās a type of energy calculation that non-disabled people will never understand.
DG: Its Crip tax, is what it is. You really have to think about, you really have to overthink about what isā¦ What you can do and what you are able to do. Do you have the energy? Will you have the energy to do these things? I can only imagine, for you Ryan, doing that scene 40 times. Yeah, you had to do it. But your poor CP body doesnāt know you are acting. Doesnāt know like, all it is, is it has to do it again!
RO: I really honestly did not. I think the hardest part of that job is just the gruel. The physicality of it. How grueling it was, because thatās what no one talks about when they talk about acting. But obviously itās not that big of a deal for someone who doesnāt have cerebral palsy. But like, you know for example when I had toā¦ I trip a couple times in the show. And that was a stunt double, obviously, they werenāt going to risk this precious cargo.
[00:23:55]
[Everyone laughs]
RO: But, I had toā¦ I had to like get up, you know, each scene. And that was really hard! Having to like get up from the ground over and over and over again. Season two, we shot four episodes and then we shut down because of the pandemy, and then we came back. You know, I stayed physically active. Momma went on her like, hour and a half Hillary Clinton wandering in the woods sanity walks every dayā
[Everyone laughs]
KB: Every day, yeah.
RO: I needed to move my body it felt like, so it didnāt get too stiff. I was really into keeping things loose and fun and fancy free.
KB: Yeah.
RO: So, I was kind of like, Iāve done a good job like keeping in shape and duh-duh-duh-duh-duh. I went back to shooting and it was like truly, like, getting hit by a Mack truck. It was like I remember one of the first things we shot was this, um, was this dance that we shot over two days. It was just me dancing for two days straight. It was like crazy. I felt like I was 85 years old. I had insane lower back pain. It was just wild! But what Iāll sayāthis is like, spoilers. Whatever. Who cares! The dance was full of other disabled people.
KB: Yesā¦
RO: So, whenever I was feeling like, āOh my god. Iām going to have to like, lie down. My body is on fire. This is insane.ā I would see other people with more severe disabilities than me who were just trucking along. I was like āOkay, bitch. Get your shit together. You are the fucking captain of this team. Put on a fucking face and go dance to fucking, you know, Rihanna. Do what you gotta do.ā But it was, it was really wild though. I just wasnātā¦ my body really was shocked back into having to be this like productive worker bee again. It was intense. And then also, Iām like not getting body work done because of the pandemy, and thatās something that has been kind of a moment too. Because my body needs to get re-tuned like, once a week for sure. Otherwise, things get a little Scary Jerry. And Iāve been unable to do that. Iāve been doing what I can myself to mitigate it myself, but itās a full-time job keeping this body running to the best of its ability. Thatās been a challenging part of it too that I donāt think people really understand. Iām not going to like, Bliss Spa and getting like fucking, you know what I mean. Itās not like, āAh! Relaxing.ā Itās literally someone breaking my body and putting it back together so it can run more efficiently.
KB: Yeah.
RO: Anyway. Thatās also been a hard part of the pandemic, I think.
KB: Oh my god, totally. Have you ever done cupping?
RO: No. But like, Iām addicted and kind of want to try. It feels very Goop-y.
KB: Iā¦ Okay. I was so terrified because, if people donāt know, itās literally a glass cup that gets lit on fire and then plopped on your back. Then you have these perfectly cylindrical like, hickeys for a week on your back. But it fixes my life.
RO: What does it do?
KB: It fixes my life. Itās a type of body work. Itās like massage but rather than someone pressing into the tissue it like, pulls the tissue up and it just like, it helps my back. So much.
[00:27:00]
DG: Oh.
KB: Like, I feel like I could dance for two days in a Netflix scene afterwards.
RO: Ah!
DG: Amazing.
KB: And then I get cocky because Iām like, āI feel awesome!ā And then I overdo it and then I crash. But itās my favourite thing. Yeah.
RO: Wow. I need to try that. You know, itās funny. Getting older, the rumors are true, your body doesnāt run the way it used to. I remember, like, I had to go do a talk in New York and I was on deadline because was writing the first episode of season 2. I wrote the pilot. The first episode, like, on the airplane back to Los Angeles. I was like hunched over, just on my little whatever in my airplane. I didnāt move. I was so engrossed for like six hours and then we landed. I looked up and my body was just like, āBitch! What did you just fucking do?ā For six hours! I like, couldnāt move.
KB: Yeah.
RO: I literally was like, frozen. And then I was truly in the most excruciating pain of my life. I had all these things planned. I was like pitching a show the next day. I did all the stuff, and I had to just wipe the slate clean and be like, actuallyā¦ I truly hurt myself. My body is in such excruciating pain. Iām sorry, I canāt. That triggers so many issues with me that Iā¦ Truly Iām like I need to deal with. Because this is a sneak preview of what it is like to get older. I feel like I still have this ableist issue of needing to be like, bigger, faster, stronger. I feel like people, when they see me and they think of me, they are going to think of someone who needs to like, take a day off because they hurt their like body.
KB: From sitting for too long. It sounds so insane.
RO: Because of working! Because Iām fucking sitting here working and Iām trying to like, doā Because I had the genius idea of flying to Syracuse when I was on deadline to write the first episode of season two. I was like, I can do both! It was like this total like, obsessive overloading of work that I have as an issue. It obviously like, caused problems. And then guess what? Because of that, because I bit off more than I could chew, I had to cancel the next three days of work commitments that I had because I couldnāt keep it chill. But then I felt this deep amount of shame. I think anytime that Iām physically compromised is deeply, deeply triggering to me. Because of my CP, but also because I got hit by a car when I was twenty, and I developed Compartment Syndrome which was like another disability which was very traumatizing. Itās like, I need to be okay with accepting my limitations and I have a really hard time with that. I feel like I fight against that all the time.
DG: I think thatās also partially, because in the disability community we are not allowed to talk about our limitations. We are supposed toā¦and even with all the work weāve done in like disability justice, we are still not allowed to talk about āthereās this thing that stops me,ā and its okay to talk about that. We are supposed to, as disabled people, push through no matter what the fuck is happening to us.
RO: Yes.
DG: We are not allowed to say Hey, this sucks today! I mean, especially for you being such a public figure. If all of your Instagram was like, My body hurts today because of CP. Hollywood would be like, What the fuck is happening with Ryan?
[00:30:08]
RO: Yeah. Itās like, exactly. I feel like, You think disabled people canāt do anything? Well, Iām like a show runner, Iām an actor, Iām doing this, Iām doing that, dah-dah-dah. And by the way, luckily like Iāve been so blessed like to not have chronic pain. By the way, this is such a funny thing, every time I have like bodywork done by someone whoās never met my body, they are literally the whole time being like, WOW!
[Everyone laughs]
RO: Oh my God! Woah! I get to have fun with you! And Iām like uhā¦ Itās actually deeply insulting. First of all, Iām like there. Iām like Please work on me! But they are like, āWait! So, like, WOAH! Woah. Your muscles are so tight.ā Theyāre like, āAre you in chronic pain?ā Iām like, āNo?ā Theyāre like āWHAT!ā
KB: Yeah.
RO: [still imitating a massage therapist or similar practitioner] Youāre not?!
KB: [also imitating] How are you functioning?!
RO: How do you even do anything? Iām like Honey, Iām just trying to like fucking get my work done. Iām here for my oil check, just do what you gotta do. You are making me feel really not great about myself. I sort of gotā¦ I can put a timer to it. It happens all the time. Iām like honey, like God. Keep your comments to yourself! Also, Iām sorry Iām not in chronic pain. Hashtag blessed. But the way you are assessing my body right now is like deeply insulting [laughs].
DG: Yeah.
RO: Yeah, itās shocking what people feel. Itās almost like I guess how a woman would feel if sheās pregnant. When they are like, āLet me touch your body!ā Like your baby belongs to them. People have this weird sense of entitlement over your body if youāre disabled. Like they feel that they can say anything, they feel they can ask anything. And as someone who is always making mental calculations into how Iām being perceived and how Iām coming off, it really blows my mind that people just have no shame and just do whatever they want and say whatever they want, without any kind of thinking.
DG: And itās hard because you can tell that they, not all the time, but a lot of the time you can tell they were trying to say something nice.
[00:33:00]
DG: They were trying to be empathetic. They were trying to, like, get into your world and they didnāt know how. Thatās the hardest part because, yeah, we can put them on blast. I can be like Fuck you, you are the worst. But Iām trying so hard to now be like, āOkay. Why did you say that thing you just said?ā
RO: Right.
DG: Letās unpack that, because I donāt want to cancel you. Thatās almost worse. So, you feel like you have to use your platform to teach people all the time even when you are like, I donāt want to today. I want to just be disabled and be happy but I feel like if I donāt correct you, you are going to keep going on with this. How do I do that in a nice way, so you donāt feel like Iāve done something wrong by telling you how I feel?
RO: Yeah. Itās always like, yeah. I donāt want to play teacher today. Why is the onus always on me to educate but it like, kind of is? You kind of have to likeā¦ I remember at an Emmy event where basically you have to meetā¦ The whole thing is weird. You have to meet Emmy voters. Itās just like, a lot. Anyway, one person came up to me and was like, āI had no idea you were even disabled. I had no idea!ā I was like okayā¦ She was saying as a compliment. Like, I shouldāve āI pass asāwhich, by the way, I donāt. I have a limp thatās clear as day, but God Bless.
[Everyone laughs]
RO: But Iām like, actually LOL. But it was like, honey thatās not a compliment. I donātā¦ The goal is not to appear as able-bodied. Thatās notā¦ But you think you are doing a nice thing. You think this is a compliment because we live in an ableist society, so I get it. But you shouldnāt say that. Itās offensive.
DG: Did you pull her aside at this Emmy event and be like, Here you go?
RO: NO! Because I was meeting like 80 people.
[Everyone laughs]
RO: And I was overwhelmed. Thereās no handbook how to deal with this shit because itās very relatable.
[Everyone laughs]
RO: You know, so I was just like āNo, thank you so much!ā Pose. And then moving on. Do you know what I mean? Like, what are you going to do? You make note of these things because it just shows how pervasive this ableism is and how it seeps into the crevices. You know what I mean? Itās wild.
KB: We talkedā¦ So, Ryan and I first met like four years ago now, I think? I was in LA.
RO: Over La Scala chopped salads. Get the setting right.
KB: Over La Scala chopped salads. It was very important. We were in Beverly Hills.
RO: Did you? Did you? By the way, did you track the La Scala controversy that just happened? Did you see that?
KB: No? Oh yeah, no you tweeted about it right?
RO: Well I, first of all, I deleted Twitter.
DG: Yeah, W T F. I was looking for you the other day and I was like, Where did he go?
RO: I have transcended the space of twitter. Itās the ultimate power move. I hate Twitter so much. I was like, there are so many more interesting ways for me to feel bad about myself. I need to exit this party that I never liked and was never having fun. Yeah. Iāve been off of it for months. Iām truly addicted. Highly recommend. 10/10.
[00:36:05]
RO: But La Scala underwent some backlash recently because they were basically pitching in their takeout containers, they were slipping a note to their customers saying Hey, we are taking the temperature. We are thinking of throwing a New Yearās Eve dinner. Iconicly the last line was Be discrete and tell everyone you know. Well, those two things donāt make sense.
[Everyone laughs]
RO: Listen. Listen. La Scala is my church so ultimately, I, like so hereās how I feel about that. I love how they are like āLetās talk about disability!ā and Iām like, āLa Scala letās weigh in.ā
[Everyone laughs]
RO: Give the readers what they want. Basically, the government in America has left everyone high and dry with no kind of road map on how to deal with things. A lot of restaurants are closing because they have no support. I feel like, in the pandemic, there is a lot of misdirected anger towards the source when Iām like, we should be mad for being orphaned by this government that has forced restaurants into compromising positions to make ends meet.
KB: Yeah.
RO: But I feel like we feel so powerless because the government is this huge entity that we canāt quite grasp so we try to throw our rage hoes towards the local level. To me, itās very misdirected. Anyway, thatāsā
[Everyone laughs]
RO: Um, but yeah. Anyway. So, we were at La Scala. Kayla, sorry. So thatās La Scala.
KB: Yes. I feel like itās the beginning of every clichĆ© magazine profile. Like, he delicately took a bit of his La Scala salad. We were talking about how Uber drivers love to ask you whatās wrong with your body [laughs].
RO: Yes. They do. Five stars.
KB: You call Uber and especially when youāre aloneā¦it happens to me all the time, itās always men. And theyāre like, āWhat happened to you? Wait, are you okay? Let me get the door.ā I donāt know if they think you are injured slash drunk. It happens all the time and that day, another thing that happens and I think happened to us right afterwards. We went to Crate & Barrel. I think it was Crate & Barrel?
RO: Iconic. What were we doing there? I was like Hereās a fun time in LA. Hereās the Crate & Barrel in Beverly Hills that I know from Canada that youāve been dying to try! I feel like such a bad host.
[Everyone laughs]
KB: No, you were like āHey. What are you doing right now? I need a wine rack. Do you want to come?ā I was like, Of course I do!
RO: L O L! Forcing you to get a wine rack with me.
[00:38:55]
DG: This is some hardcore foreshadowing for when Ryan and I hang out. I know where we are going.
RO: Oh my God. So on-brand!
KB: It was really glamourous. So, we are shopping for a wine rack and it was just soā¦people donāt know what to do when thereās two disabled people, visibly disabled people together. The store person is like looking you up and down, like are you good? Itās very funny to me.
RO: And Iām very Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman. Iām like, āI got money to spend here!ā
KB: Yeah.
DG: Did they think you were dating because you are two disabled people? Iām sure somebody mustāve walked up to you and been like, āOh. Are you together? Good for you!ā
RO: No, I think they thought we escaped from like, the disabled factory. We needed to like go back to our home.
[Everyone laughs]
RO: You know what I mean?
KB: And then the only other anecdote, we can cut this, itās not important. The only other anecdote from that day is that you were like do people say, āCan I pray for you?ā I was like that hasnāt happened to me. The very next day I was walking down the street and this woman was like, āGod Bless!ā Tries to touch you and itās like, please stop!
RO: Oh my God. I take full responsibility for that. I summoned that into your life.
KB: Yeah.
RO: Also, it might be regional thing. It might be an LA thing.
KB: Maybe. Maybe.
RO: Yeah, Iāve gotten that. Iāve gotten that from people on the street. Iāve gotten that from an Uber driver saying, āOh, I can heal you through my tinctures.ā You are like, honey, whatā¦ People are truly just so fucking wild. Itās like, they all need to seek treatment in my opinion [laughs]. Yeah.
KB: The ableism is the virus.
RO: Yes.
KB: For sure.
DG: Is that shirt yet? Can it be a shirt? Ryan, you know people. Make that a shirt!
RO: Yeah, oh my god. Iām very inept but Iām sure I can find a way to get that out there.
KB: Kristina, do you want to toss us another, like, actual question or do we want to continue talking about salad? I mean, I could go either way.
RO: I know, right? Oh my God.
KM: I mean, Ryan this is your episode. A question, or just like more salad stories? Up to you.
RO: Um, we can do a question and then Iām sure that will turn into another salad story.
KM: Okay, cool. So, in kind of like other interviews and writing that youāve done youāve described your relationship to your disabled identity as a process of coming out that was almost more challenging for you in terms of coming out as gay. So, with where you are at now in your life, what is your relationship to a Queer-Crip identity in terms of your activism and representation in the world?
RO: Oh my God. Again, such a Herbie Fully Loaded question. First of all, I feel like I have such anxiety because I feel like thereās still so much I have to learn about disability. I feel like my brain is always being expanded in terms of disability. I just read this book called Sitting Pretty by Rebekahā¦ Oh my God. Iām blanking on her last name.
KB: Cockly maybe?
[00:41:57]
DG: Noā¦ Rebecca Tolvison?
RO: Yes, something in that area.
KB: Iāll link her Instagram because itās really good [note: itās Rebekah Taussig, and Iāve linked to her account in the show notes].
RO: I read that book like two months ago and my brain just expanded. It was just like, it was soā¦ Sheās like, smart. I identify spiritually and intellectually as like a bimbo. She has a literal PhD. So, you are like, Okay! I get it! You know what I mean? But her book is so smart. She just talks about these kind of intense subjects and ableism, blah blah blah. But she does it in a really succinct, thoughtful, easy to digest kind of way. Just even reading that was like okay. Brain expansion a little bit more. Brain expansion a little bit more. But I think I have this anxiety because I donāt see myself and an activist, per se. I think, in terms of knowing so much more aboutā¦ like Kayla. Youāre an academic. You went to school for a million years. You know your shit, capital S.
KB: Thank you.
RO: And I donāt. I think, I guess if I was to say, my form of activism is through storytelling. Thatās the medium through which I do. Iām a disabled person who, like, goes through the world with the confidence of Rob Schneider in the late 90s, and I think thatās like my own form of activism.
[Everyone laughs]
RO: Do you know what I mean? I think I have this sort of inadequacy, or like imposter syndrome that I donāt quite have it all. I donāt know it all. That gives me, you know, that does give me anxiety, but I also know that everyoneās road is different. Thereās many different forms of activism.
DG: Thereās something really, and Iāve said this to you before, but thereās something really refreshing about the fact that you donāt claim to know everything. That you donāt come off as this hyper-knowledgeable person on everything disability. Because I think a lot of the times when it comes to disability justice, we are expected to know everything right away, and if we donāt know everything right away, then we have somehow failed. What I appreciate about your work and the way you position yourself is that you donāt claim to know everything. You are just learning. I think thereās value in being a disabled person and being brave/confident enough to say āI donāt know this. But Iām willing to learn.ā
RO: Yeah. I mean, even like okay. Iām going to be like totally real. So, like, thereā¦ Okay, so thereās something in season two, this is like spoiler alert, too. Whatever. Iām being so bad. I feel like I shouldnāt say any of these things. Thereās flashbacks to Ryan as a baby, which by the way Iām truly addicted. Love. The kid was adorable. Itās beyond. He had CP.
KB: Yes!
DG: Yes! [cheers]
RO: Well, by the way, of course! You think Iām going to fucking hire an able-bodiedā like, LOL.
KM: No.
RO: But you know. By the way, CP actor babies donāt grow on trees. Letās put it that way.
[Everyone laughs]
RO: Itās not like going to the Galleria and picking something up. Anyway, he was amazing. It was all amazing.
[00:44:56]
RO: But the episode ends. Whatever. Like, thereās a moment where Ryan is struggling to walk and Karen, my mom, doesnāt know if he ever will because that was so much of my parents growing up. They did not know what my case was going to be like. So, the first three years of my life, first of all everything was delayed. Obviously. I wasnāt reaching milestones when I shouldāve or whenever. But they really didnāt know where I would plateau. They did not know what my case was going to look like. I always thought about what a really intense, stressful thing not to know, you know? So, anyway. At one point, Ryan does walk, and he takes his first steps and itās seen as this really emotional thing. Thereās this gorgeous score and Jessica [Hecht, the actor who plays Ryanās mom, Karen] hit it out of the park. Itās really beautiful and itās emotional. I actually really get teary eyed. But then I think, Why am I so emotional? Why is it so important that Ryan is taking his first steps? Why is this such a thing that weāve seen of like, Yes. Letās unpack it. So of course, like, Jessica, my mom Karen is excited for Ryan to walk because she knows his life got just this much easier because we live in a world that is not as hospitable to wheelchair users as it is to people who can walk. She already knows that by walking he is going to have an easier time just baseline existing. But when we, butā¦ thatās fine. But when you are doing a TV show you canāt have these like subtitles of like, āJUST FYI! This isā¦ā You know what Iām saying?
KB: Wait. Can we do a directorās cut where we break it down? I can be like this disability theory says actuallyā¦
[Everyone laughs]
RO: Well see when I made it, when I wrote it and we shot it, I wrote it as this really important emotional moment. Which, again, it was. This is where it gets confusing. Again, for the mom it was, but now we shot thisā¦because of the pandemy I wrote it fucking a year ago? We shot it almost a year ago. Now Iām like, Oh I donāt want to see a beautiful moment of a disabled person learning how to walk ever again. Because I think itās really harmful and I think, again, itās ableism. It is. Just like in its purest form. And I think if you are going to show it, you should question why itās so important. Like, people should question why they are getting so emotional and why itās so important to them that Ryan knows how to walk. Why is that so fucking important? Like, why are we not, you know, holding the world to task to make it so thatās not the end goal? That people can live within the confines of their ability and not have to suffer and not, you know, be left out. Not be left behind.
DG: Wouldnāt it be just as awesome to see a similar scene in the next show that tackles disability where, you know, little baby person gets their first wheelchair?
[00:48:05]
RO: Right. So thatās where Iām going. In my new show, which who the fuck knows what will happen, itās much more about that. But itās an interesting thing where I have grown now as a person, as a disabled person, where I donātā¦ and Iām not trying to throw my own show under the bus. Itās such a beautiful moment and I donāt want to also undercut what Jessica did, like what the whole operation is. I think itās beautifully done, but itās definitely one of those moments where Iām like, mmm-mmm. We need to challenge why this is soā¦ why you are getting teary-eyed about seeing a disabled child learn how to walk. You know what I mean? Why is this so important?
KB: The mommy bloggers love those videos. Kids learning to walk. Babies learning to hear. The cochlear implants, things like that.
DG: People learning to see for the first time once they get those things in their eyes. Once they have surgery to fix their eyesight or whatever.
RO: And I get why they are so excited! Itās because their life is going to get easier. Again, our world is not structured to support them. So, but itās like why are we trying to bend ourself? Why is that the end goal? Again, it needs to beā¦ I donāt know. Itās likeā
DG: Itās so hard. And I agree with you. I think itās really hard and so nuanced. I think when that happens to the parents and when they see their disabled child walking for the first time, or they see the disabled baby hearing or the Deaf baby hearing for the first time they shouldnāt be robbed of that joy. Of course not! But I think my problem with videos like that, not the one you shot, I mean videos we see on YouTube all the time. Is that itās then produced for like, the abled gaze of consumerism.
RO: It is! But my show, I mean itās not out yet. But it feels like that was my, it was for that consumption. It just shows that in my work Iām evolving in real time, in a lot of ways. And like, by the way, season two to me is so incredible and Iām so excited for you guys to all see it and I really think youāll love it because I think it really goes there. Itās just, I donāt know. Iām very proud of it. Itās that one moment that Iām like Hmmā¦ okay. Why is that in? Why did we do that? What is that doing? Thatās not sayingā¦ Weāve seen that beforeā¦ We are not. But itās, again, my brain wasnāt there yet when we made it. And now I am. Itās like, There you go! In real time you are seeing me figure things, out which is an interesting way to be processing things, let me tell you.
KB: Yeah, like, Oh you want to do this in public? In front of Netflix? Here you go.
RO: Yeah. By the way, I will say the disabled community, you know, knock on wood because who knows what the season two perception will be. But theyāve been really supportive of everything that I have done. Which is amazing because sometimes you can eat your own.
[00:51:00]
DG: They like to do that a lot.
RO: Yeah. And so, I justā¦ I mean Iām sure someone will eat me for breakfast lunch and dinner. Iāve just been reallyā¦ All I can do, with everything I do, is lead with honesty. I just like need to be completely up front and, you know, I wouldnāt even feel comfortable showing that and not commenting the way Iām talking about it now. I think you should be able to just grow in real time. I think thatās called being a human.
DG: Youāve spoken a little bit about perception and Iām curious, just curious, because so many of the non-disabled people that I have come across whoāve watched your show have immediately gone to āIt was so great! And in the first two minutes I started to cry! And it was so amazing! And it was so powerful!ā And I get that. But also, like okay. Did you watch it for its comedic value or were you just shocked to see a disabled person enjoying themselves? Whatās happening here?
RO: Yeah. I mean I donāt know, itās interesting. I think sometimes when I think about the positive reception the show got, Iām like āAre we just woke-proof? Can you not take down the gay disabled show?ā Like, whatās happening? Do you know what I mean? Cause there has been some shows Iāve seen where Iām like whatās going on? Because thatās notā¦ Yeah. But like, Iā¦ Yeah, no. I donāt know. Itās soā¦ Iām sure itās so personal that you canāt even tease apart what you are enjoying about it. Is it because of the storytelling or is it because youāre finally seeing someone that looks and acts like you?
KB: Itās the Old El Paso meme, like why not both?
RO: Yeah. Exactly.
KB: The girl with the taco. Thatās how I feel. It was both for me. Like, the fact that the first episode was called cerebral LOLzy, I never thought that I would see that on this earth. But the fact that the other jokes make me laugh anyway.
DG: I thought that was so funny because Ryan and I had talked before and he had used that terminology with me before I saw it. So, I saw it and I went yeah. Thatās peak Ryan OāConnell right there. That tracks!
RO: Punning is a disability that I would love to be cured from, actually.
[Everyone laughs]
KB: Yeah.
RO: Iām sorry! Problematic! But I actually would like to live life pun-free, okay? Itās been a huge detriment to my world and like, I would love to live without it!
KB: Itās a disease! I share. Maybe itās a co-morbidity with cerebral palsy.
DG: I share it too! I have the same thing! I also love alliteration really hard!
RO: Me too. I love alliteration.
KB: I think itās a CP symptom.
RO: Yeah. Exactly. LOL we just come up with our own. Weāre like doctors. Weāre like, āSo, if you have cerebral palsy you might experience this thing called punning.ā
DG: Side effects of CP might includeā¦
RO: Itās going to be really scary. Oh yeah, you are going to be alliterating things. Honey, I mean itās like, wish we could do something but thereās no cure. It is what it is. Itās your body figuring things out through your mind.
KB: Yeah. Yeah. Going to have to live with that. I know, I have a couple friends who have CP and we text each other. Itās like, does this happen to you? Itās like those infomercials, but weāre like, Do you think this is a symptom?
[00:54:00]
DG: How do I get on that text chain?
RO: Oh my God.
KB: I will text you. I just feel like I get so sweaty all the time. And Iām like, is this a CP thing? I donāt know.
RO: No, I donāt think so.
[Everyone laughs]
RO: But the thing about CP that is so crazy is that it really does affect everyone differently. Thatās a thing that Iām like, that is so crazy. That someone could have CP and have experienced none of the things that youāve experienced. Itās such aā¦ it catches such a wide swatch of symptoms and side effects and all that stuff.
DG: And I also love that if you have CP like, when I was watching the first season, you know. There were so many markers of like, yup. Yup. Thatās a CP thing. Like, yup. His gait. I can tell.
RO: Mmhmm.
DG: I think for the CP viewers watching, there were so many moments of like, Iām included here!
RO: Yeah. No, absolutely. Thereās a lot of commonalities. I think it isā¦ What people can relate to regardless of the severity of your case or whatever, is the mental gymnastics that you have to do to navigate the world on a daily basis.
DG: I should say, I am severely sexy all the time.
RO: Yes. Exactly. Be the PR firm for CP that you wish to see in the world.
KB: Thatās also a symptom. For sure.
RO: Sexiness?
DG: Severely sexy? Yes.
RO: Itās so bad.
KB: Itās really hard. Itās really hard to beā¦
RO: Really, really, really, hard.
DG: Thatās what they said?
RO: Oh my God. LOL.
KB: All righty.
KM: I got a few more questions.
RO: Sure!
KM: Yeah! And then weāll have to go live out the rest of our Sunday afternoons.
KB: Itās like dark out here, so it feels like night time.
KM: Um, so we talked a little bit, yeah, I mean we talked a lot about ableism in society. We talked a little bit about internalized ableism. Whatās next for you in this like unlearning of internalized ableism in your life, and how do you see that being represented in your work moving forward?
RO: Well, internalized ableism I like to think of as a poisonous gas that is everywhere that you canāt necessarily see or smell, but itās just there. You donāt even know when you are inhaling it until youāre like, āI feel kind of lightheaded. Weird! Anyways!ā
[Everyone laughs]
RO: So, I donāt think itās necessarily like, when itās a byproduct of the culture that you live in, I donāt necessarily think thereās a version where you are like, āIām done!ā Like, do you know what I mean? Itās always going to be, for me at least, a very complicated journey. The only thing that I can do is really just be cognizant of it, and be able to check myself before I wreck myself. You know? Like we talked about earlier, my obsession with productivity and wantingā¦
[00:57:00]
RO: I also just feel, as a disabled person, I just feel like Iām on this time clock. Not to be morbid because I donāt think Iām going to die early or whatever. Cut to tomorrow. Itās like, His last podcast.
[Everyone laughs]
RO: But itās like, I just feel like I have so much I want to get done and thereās so much I want to do. Thereās so much I want to say. I feel very like, man on a mish.
KB: Yeah.
DG: [laughs]
RO: I donāt necessarily knowā¦ Itās so hard because I feel like Cerebral Palsy has gifted me with a lot of amazing, like, qualities in terms of being productive. In terms of being kind of scrappy and being like, āLetās fucking figure this out!ā Like MacGyver vibes. But, like, I also think I wish I could like be kind to myself and let myself take breaks and likeā¦ like you know what I mean? Iām even triggered when I get a cold. Thatās also another reason why I donāt want to get Corona even if itās mild. It will wreck me for weeks because I know Iād be taken out for a few days. I really, reallyā¦ we talked about me getting injured on the airplane being all hunched over and stuff. Those events are deeply, deeply triggering because they symbolize a loss of control. I feel like so much of my energy is like, I was born into a body I could not control, so now in every other aspect of my life Iām going to exert control where I can. Thatās where I find solace.
DG: That is so a CP thing. Kayla, I donāt know if you experience that?
KB: Every day.
DG: Literally what you just said, itās like oh my God. Itās me! I have to control every single detail of what I do because I canāt control anything else.
RO: Yeah. Absolutely. Itās like, itā¦ but like in a way that need for control has given me a lot of amazing things. But to me, itās always a double-edged sword. Itās always like playing a game of whack-a-mole. It brings me a lot of gifts, but it can also bring me a lot of heartache. I just donāt know how to tease those things apart. I think they come in the same package and you just have to learn to deal with them and be mindful. Itās not, again, itās never going to be a journey where like Iām going to be, āOkay, I conquered internal ableism. I crossed it off my list.ā I think itās gonna always be with me. Itās always really important to understand like why am I doing this? Why is it important that I, you knowā¦ even exercising! I got really into exercising like 5 years ago because I never had a relationship to my body. I was very disconnected, which I think was rooted in self-loathing and denying my disability. My body would call me. I would never call it back. It would text, Iād be like I got a new number. XOXO.
DG: Oh, you were that guy. I hate that guy.
RO: Well, no! I was just likeā¦ Oh my God. LOL. But it was like, I just reallyā¦ I felt profoundly disconnected from my body because I hated it, and I saw my body as something thatā¦all I could see it for were its flaws or its deficits or whatever.
[1:00:08]
RO: And then I started exercising and I felt, for the first time, profoundly in my body. In touch with my body. Connected to my body. Which was incredible! But I also was floored by what my body could do because I feel like, having CP, I was just resigned to a certain level of mobility. Blah, blah, blah. But by exercising and moving my body I felt like I was conquering the things that I never thought were possible, so that was empowering. However, again, double-edged sword time. Itās like, I also felt like part of me was like, the more I was working out was trying to achieve this able-bodiedness. Like, if I run five miles maybe the CP will magically fall off of me. So thatās what Iām talking about. Itās such a tricky thing because itās not one thing! It can be both positive and negative. Because of the ableism that exists in our society, itās really hard to tell when one ends and the other begins. Does that make sense?
KB: A hundred percent.
KM: Yes.
DG: Completely. One million percent.
KB: Thatās so relatable.
DG: Relatable content! Ding, ding, ding!
RO: Thatās what I aim to give. A hundred percent relatability. Chopped salads, people harassing me at Emmy eventsā¦
[Everyone laughs]
RO: You know. I just really am, Iām a man of the fucking people. You know?
DG: A man of the C-People, if you would [punning on āpeople with Cerebral Palsyā]
RO: Oh, thatās good. Again, we are not okay. You are not okay. Again, punning is like, check yourself. Take an ointment. Take an ointment.
DG: Iāll take a tincture.
RO: LOL. Exactly. Iāll cure you.
KB: Yeah. No. Itās so hard because then people, like, people donāt see the behind-the-scenes mental gymnastics. They only see what you put out. Right? And then they are like Oh my god. Youāre amazing! Youāre like, so inspiring! Itās like okay, Iām just trying to liveā¦
RO: Yeah. Totally. Yeah. I know.
KB: Itās really bizarre and I donāt think, like, I donāt know. If you find a metaphor to make people understand, let me know.
DG: Yeah.
RO: Yeah, itās hard. Itās really, really hard. Also, I think thereās a certain mind fuck with having CP where you feel on bothā¦ You feel this insane sense of hyper-visibility and sense of wherever you go people are going to stare at you. Then itās met with also this hyper-invisibility. So, you see people see you and then make the decision to un-see you in real time. So, itās this really, really, insane mind fuck contrast of being. Like, walking around like youāre this glow in the dark sticker, but then also feeling like no one sees you and that you are just completely ignored. So thatās fun too.
KB: Or like, have you ever experienced where maybe you only talked to someone over the phone or, nowadays, over Zoom so they only see your face and they donāt know. Then you meet them in person, and they see you or you are sitting at a chair or something and they come in the room. Then you stand up and stumble out the door, they are likeā¦you can see them try to figure it out. They are like I didnātā¦ I didnātā¦ Oh.
[1:03:12]
RO: Totally! But I have a fix for that. I think you should just star in your own Netflix show and then everyone will know that you are disabled, so then you donāt have to deal with that ever again.
KB: Oh my God. Why didnāt I think of that?
KM: Yeah!
RO: I actually donāt know, and I donāt want to call you out. Itās like hello, the solution is right there Kayla. Itās like hello.
DG: Kayla, letās start production on that. Can I be your co-star?
[Everyone laughs]
KB: Yeah. Maybe thereās someone who already has a show that couldā¦ [laughs]
[Everyone laughs]
RO: Who?
KB: That could pull some strings.
RO: Who? I want to killā¦ What bitch!
DG: This OāConnell person we know.
RO: I threaten, Iām like Who! Iāll take him down. Yeah, itās weird. Itās weird because I was closeted with my disability until I was twenty-eight, it has been really, really crazy to go from someone who was trying to like push CP out of his life. You know, no one really knew, to just now the whole world knows. Itās much better on this end. We talked, like, last weekend when we had this pre-call. About howā¦ I was in Provincetown. I told you this story last weekend, right?
KB: Yeah. Yeah.
RO: Okay, so now Iām retelling.
KB: Itās for the listeners.
KM: Itās for the people!
RO: For the listen ā yeah. Itās for the people!
DG: The C-people.
RO: But I was in Provincetown, which is this gay mecca at the tip of Cape Cod. I highly recommend. Itās incredible. Anyway, we went to the gay beach. I was like, initially triggered by it. You know like when, like, your friends are like, āOh. Itās a little bit of a hike but itās so worth it!ā You are like, okay. A little bit of a hike for you is literally, we are climbing Mount Everest. Iām fully Reese Witherspoon in Wild. What do I need to do? You always adjust. You are always like, Hey whatās happening. Anyway, we go to the gay beach which is truly unpleasant and hard to get to. I truly was like, I hate you all for doing this to me.